Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 16:23:49 -0600
From: "John H. Payne" <john@facebase.com> 
To: "Joe Payne" <joe@joepayne.org>
CC: wpayne555@aol.com
Subject: Payne DNA Match Participant 50540
    
Joe (and Barry),

You got me wondering if John Payne b. 1640 in Leicester, England and/or his son Josiah Payne b. 1662 St. Martins, Leicester, England were Quakers?  According to this link George Fox (1624-1691), a founder of the Quakers was from Leicestershire, England, only about 15 miles from Leicester, England.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Fox

"Josiah" probably is a Quaker name imo referring to "King Josiah" in 2 Kings who rediscovered the Bible and destroyed idols which would seem a perfect name for Quaker philosophy from what I've read of it.
    http://www.geocities.com/thekingsofisrael/biography_Josiah.html

The Josiah Payne b. 1690 Middlesex, England (son of Josiah, grandson of John) is closer to London which had become a center of the Quaker movement by this time.  So that part seems to fit as well.

Meanwhile, William Penn, another leading Quaker, received an enormous land grant in America (Pennsylvania) from King James II and Pennsylvania was being settled during this period in history as kind of a utopian experiment.

William Penn and George Fox travelled all over the place, back and forth to America, France, Holland, Germany, much more than I would have guessed was even possible in that era.  William Penn is well known for organizing many ships of early Quaker settlers to Pennsylvania.

(Pure Speculation:  "Penn" similar to "Payn" ... William Penn's father an Admiral ... William Penn spent 3 years in France .... becomes a Quaker to his father's great displeasure ... massive American land grant from James II .... wife's maiden name "Callowhill" simliar to "Cowgill" .... nothing to back this up yet .... hope to play with this some more).

This was also period in history when William of Orange forced out James II .... but then James II allied with the French and tried to invade England via Ireland to retake the throne.  However this failed.

You could never predict when the Quakers were going to get in trouble with authority.  For one thing they refused to "swear an oath" to anything except God.  This is basically how Quakers lost governing authority of North Carolina ... they had all the power but refused to take the oath of office.  Amazing.  At one point Quakers were the largest religious group in Rhode Island, and of course Pennsylvania.  I had no idea.

As far as this Josiah Payne b. 1690 being kidnapped by a "Press Gang" of the Royal Navy and then him fleeing in Philadelphia, this is certainly possible .... let's remember those "Press Gangs" were operating well inland, not only in the port cities .... and maybe even more likely they also were fond of "pressing" people into service from merchant ships and it was legal for them to do so.  It would not have been inconsistent for this Josiah to be working on a Jersey fishiing ship for example, when the British Navy "pressed" him?

I guess I can claim my family "hit the ground running" when we reached America:-)

I'm not buying for one minute that this Josiah Payne b. 1690 emigrated with his wife (Martha Sheppard Payne) to America.  Either they emigrated together or else the "Press Gang" story is true .... but not both.  So if the "Press Gang" story is true ... how the heck did Martha Sheppard get to America?

So far I've read Josiah Payne's wife, Martha Sheppard (sp?) was born in Holland.  (Some dispute this.)  Worth noting is that George Fox did visit Holland to promote his Quaker beliefs (and of course the Dutch were a maritime power in this era ... remember too the "Pennsylvania Dutch" ... many of the early settlers of Pennsylvania did not just come from England).  I'll just bet when Josiah Payne hit the ground running in Pennsylvania .... Martha Sheppard was already there!  Should be able to find her parents on the passenger lists of one of William Penn's voyages to Pennsylvania.  William Penn was organizing ships of Quaker settlers to Pennsylvania from many ports, even one from Ireland.  Honestly I did not in my wildest dreams imagine there would be such a thing as Irish Quakers but there were:-)

Here's a somewhat related find .... much later around the time of the Revolutionary War ....just search on "Payne" at this (below) link to find James Payne, Josiah Payne, Oliver Payne, Thomas Payne (2),  and William Payne (2) all listed as British Prisioners of War being held on Ships in what became the Brooklyn Navy Yard but was then called Wallabout Bay.
     http://www.usmm.net/revdead.html

Considering that William Temple Payne (an older brother of Dolley Madison's) was considered "lost at sea" and was supposedly trying to sail from Philadephia back to England during this time period .... it makes me wonder ... could he have been one of these 8,000 prisoners of war held on British ships???  (Barry ... note the ship holding these records was "the Jersey").  (email from Participant 945R William B. Payne who is a direct descendant of George Payne and Mary Woodson)
From: WPayne555@aol.com  Add to Address Book  Add Mobile Alert 
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 00:21:37 EST
Subject: Re: Payne DNA Match
To: john@facebase.com
CC: joe@joepayne.org
   
JP (&Joe),
Interesting discussion of the Quakers.


Considering that William Temple Payne (an older brother of Dolley Madison's) was considered "lost at sea" and was supposedly trying to sail from Philadephia back to England during this time period .... it makes me wonder ... could he have been one of these 8,000 prisoners of war held on British ships???  (Barry ... note the ship holding these records was "the Jersey").

From what I have seen speculated on William Temple, he was supposedly was "lost at sea" in the 1790's. He was probably too young during the period of the 8,000 prisoners (number seems a little high)
Your connection of Josiah with the Quakers is interesting since Josias is the Jewish name for Josiah.  I have not seen the name Josias used anywhere else in the Payne (Payn) family although there are several with the name Josiah. From family lore, George, Josias, and down my line have supposedly been Presbyterian. I have assumed that John (Josias, George) became a Quaker because of his wife but there may have been some family (cousins) influence. Interesting question.  The name that seems to be used quite abundantly in the Payne family is William. I haven't looked at a lot of other surnames to know if that was just a popular name or the Payne family liked it. I am the fourth William in six generations starting with Josias son William. I believe I am the third William Barrett with the other two in earlier times and in the lines of other sons of William. Mary Barrett must have been some lady.  You see the Barrett name used a number of times.  With the naming pattern of this Payne line, William Temple and William Wilson fit.  It would be interesting to see the lineage of the Josiah Payne b.1640 St. Martins, Leicester, England since there is a St Martins in Jersey that is the home the Payn family.
More research on that line would be helpful.

Regards,
Barry

I've read John Payne, Dolley Madison's father, died kind of a broken man in Philadelphia ... after many years as a Quaker leader he was thrown out of the Quakers, basically for being poor.  Historians usually write he was poor because his starch-making business in Philadelphia failed but imo two far bigger reasons he was poor are :  (1) he freed all his slaves which cost him as estimated $25,000 a fortune in those days and (2) the "Continental currency" he got in exchange for his land in Virginia very likely ended up worthless.  In any case after he was kicked out of the Quakers he joined the "Free Quakers" who had supported the Revolutionary War.  I just bet Josiah Payne, b. 1690 would have felt more sympathy for those "Free Quakers" and the Revolution after being "pressed" by the British Navy.

I realize (the above) doesn't add up to a theory ... just things I thought you may find interesting.

Best Regards,

JP